| Notes |
- [royalfam.ged]
Llywelyn did not marry Joan until 1205 at the EARLIEST, or 1206, if you believe more detaile d sources. Llywelyn did not receive the final (third) letter from the Pope declaring his bet rothal to the daughter of
the King of Man to be void until 1205. Giving a year for conception and birth, if one assume d Gwladys were daughter of Joan, she could not have been born earlier than 1206 or 1207. I f she were older than eight or nine years old in 1215, she could not have been daughter of Jo an. As I stated before, the marriage to Reginald de Braose in 1215 was one of political expe diency, and not one where the were waiting for the girl to come of age (so to speak). You' d be relying heavily on the coincidence that Gwladys happened to be in that very narrow rang e between seven (before which age she could not even have been betrothed) and eight, or nine . Then we have Joan's son and heir David being born BY 1208 (gave homage in 1229). If Joa n were indeed married in 1206, and David born in 1208 (he cannot have been born later if th e law was followed), that is an awfully tight squeeze to put Gwladys's coincidental birth the re.
I still think the claim that Gwladys was daughter of Joan, and that she therefore MUST have b een born in 1207--not before, not after--is doubtful.
"Paul C. Reed"
In answer to your question, there was a clear and unambigious statement that Gladys Dhu was t he daughter of Llywelyn and Joan in the chronicle of Adam of Usk. Adam knew the Mortimer fam ily and
presumably had access to their archives. While Adam is a late date witness and not altogethe r reliable, he is rather emphatic that Gladys was Joan's daughter.
As for another late date testimony of the Mortimer family's descent from Llywelyn, I find th e Visitation of the North prepared c. 1480-1500 states that "Roger [recte Ralph] Mortemer dux it Gladiswiscam filiam principis Wallie." [Reference: Surtees Society, vol. 144, published 19 30, pg. 3.
Presumably the point of reciting the extended Mortimer pedigree back to Prince Llywelyn is be cause the English descendants of the Mortimer family c. 1480-1500 believed that Gladys was th e legitimate daughter of Prince Llywelyn, by his wife, Joan.
Adam of Usk and the Visitation of the North aside, I believe the best evidence of Gladys Dhu' s parentage is the fact that Gladys' father, Llywelyn, released two castles which he had in f ree marriage with his wife, Joan, to Gladys' husband, Ralph de Mortimer. I posted a transcri pt of Llywelyn's charter to Ralph de Mortimer on the newsgroup. If you need help finding th e transcript, please let me know.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com
If I read this right are you saying that as there was an ongoing dispute with the Mortimers o ver Knighton and Norton, Llywelyn may have decided to cut his losses and give away the proper ties with Gwladys. The pragmatic value of such an act would have overridden the issue of he r maternity. It is my understanding that legally Llywellyn could have given the properties aw ay with the consent of Joan, anyway.
Also in 1229, Gwladys Dhu accompanied her brother as widow of Reginald de Braose for the purp ose of negotiations in London for her to become bride of Ralph Mortimer? If this is the case , we cannot draw any conclusions about her maternity from this event.
Cheers
Rosie
"Rosie Bevan"
Two major pieces of evidence point to Joan as being Gladys' mother.
[GMacGen@aol.com] Giles tells us that Peter C. Bartrum's _Welsh Genealogies_ [table Gruffud d ap Cynan 4] gives the mother of Gwladys Ddu as Tangwystl. Here is what is shown in Peter C . Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, page 446, Gruffudd ap Cynan 4:
Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd
m Margred f. Madog (Bl ap C 3)
|
Llywelyn d. 1240
(1) Joan d. King John m. 1205
(a) Tangwystl f. Llywarch Goch (LL. Ho. 1)
|
Gwladus Ddu d. 1251
(1) Reginald de Braose d. 1228
(2) Ralph II Mortimer d. 1246
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor and Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION
__________________________________________
HT Communications / PO Box 1401 / Arvada CO 80001
VOICE: 303-420-4888 FAX: 303-420-4845
http://HTCommunications.org/homepage.htm
KHF333@AOL.com
|
Abt 1205 - 1251 (46 years)
[1] 
ROGER De MORTIMER, b. 1221, Radnorshire, Wales 
