Notes:

[royalfam.ged]

Llywelyn did not marry Joan until 1205 at the EARLIEST, or 1206, if you believe more detaile d sources. Llywelyn did not receive the final (third) letter from the Pope declaring his bet rothal to the daughter of
the King of Man to be void until 1205. Giving a year for conception and birth, if one assume d Gwladys were daughter of Joan, she could not have been born earlier than 1206 or 1207. I f she were older than eight or nine years old in 1215, she could not have been daughter of Jo an. As I stated before, the marriage to Reginald de Braose in 1215 was one of political expe diency, and not one where the were waiting for the girl to come of age (so to speak). You' d be relying heavily on the coincidence that Gwladys happened to be in that very narrow rang e between seven (before which age she could not even have been betrothed) and eight, or nine . Then we have Joan's son and heir David being born BY 1208 (gave homage in 1229). If Joa n were indeed married in 1206, and David born in 1208 (he cannot have been born later if th e law was followed), that is an awfully tight squeeze to put Gwladys's coincidental birth the re.

I still think the claim that Gwladys was daughter of Joan, and that she therefore MUST have b een born in 1207--not before, not after--is doubtful.

"Paul C. Reed"

In answer to your question, there was a clear and unambigious statement that Gladys Dhu was t he daughter of Llywelyn and Joan in the chronicle of Adam of Usk. Adam knew the Mortimer fam ily and
presumably had access to their archives. While Adam is a late date witness and not altogethe r reliable, he is rather emphatic that Gladys was Joan's daughter.

As for another late date testimony of the Mortimer family's descent from Llywelyn, I find th e Visitation of the North prepared c. 1480-1500 states that "Roger [recte Ralph] Mortemer dux it Gladiswiscam filiam principis Wallie." [Reference: Surtees Society, vol. 144, published 19 30, pg. 3.

Presumably the point of reciting the extended Mortimer pedigree back to Prince Llywelyn is be cause the English descendants of the Mortimer family c. 1480-1500 believed that Gladys was th e legitimate daughter of Prince Llywelyn, by his wife, Joan.

Adam of Usk and the Visitation of the North aside, I believe the best evidence of Gladys Dhu' s parentage is the fact that Gladys' father, Llywelyn, released two castles which he had in f ree marriage with his wife, Joan, to Gladys' husband, Ralph de Mortimer. I posted a transcri pt of Llywelyn's charter to Ralph de Mortimer on the newsgroup. If you need help finding th e transcript, please let me know.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com

If I read this right are you saying that as there was an ongoing dispute with the Mortimers o ver Knighton and Norton, Llywelyn may have decided to cut his losses and give away the proper ties with Gwladys. The pragmatic value of such an act would have overridden the issue of he r maternity. It is my understanding that legally Llywellyn could have given the properties aw ay with the consent of Joan, anyway.

Also in 1229, Gwladys Dhu accompanied her brother as widow of Reginald de Braose for the purp ose of negotiations in London for her to become bride of Ralph Mortimer? If this is the case , we cannot draw any conclusions about her maternity from this event.

Cheers

Rosie
"Rosie Bevan"

Two major pieces of evidence point to Joan as being Gladys' mother.

[GMacGen@aol.com] Giles tells us that Peter C. Bartrum's _Welsh Genealogies_ [table Gruffud d ap Cynan 4] gives the mother of Gwladys Ddu as Tangwystl. Here is what is shown in Peter C . Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, page 446, Gruffudd ap Cynan 4:

Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd
m Margred f. Madog (Bl ap C 3)
|
Llywelyn d. 1240
(1) Joan d. King John m. 1205
(a) Tangwystl f. Llywarch Goch (LL. Ho. 1)
|
Gwladus Ddu d. 1251
(1) Reginald de Braose d. 1228
(2) Ralph II Mortimer d. 1246

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Editor and Publisher
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__________________________________________
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GWLADYS married Reynold Reginald De Braose before 1221 in Wales. Reynold (son of William De Braose and Matilda Maud De Saint Valery, son of William De Braose and Bertha of Hereford) was born in Bramber, Sussex, England; died on 09 Jun 1228 in Brecon, Breconshire, Wales; was buried in Priory Church, Brecon, Breconshire, Wales. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

GWLADYS married RALPH De MORTIMER in 1230 in England. RALPH (son of ROGER De MORTIMER and ISABEL De FERRIERES) was born in 1190 in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England; died on 06 Aug 1246 in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England; was buried in 1246 in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

1. ROGER De MORTIMER was born in 1221 in Radnorshire, Wales; died on 27 Oct 1282 in Kingsland, Herefordshire, England.
2. Joan Mortimer was born about 1223 in Wigmore, Hereford, England.
3. Hugh Mortimer was born about 1233 in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England; died about Jan 1273.
4. John De Mortimer was born about 1235 in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England.
5. Peter De Mortimer was born about 1237 in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England.
6. Isolda De Mortimer was born about 1239 in Wigmore, Kent, England.

Notes:

[royalfam.ged]

Having followed the various threads on this subject, is the following correct?

Llywellyn Fawr (1194-1240)
Married [1] Joan Plantagenet (c 1189-1236)

Children:

Gwladus Ddu (1206-1251) m[1] Reginald de Braose
m[2] Ralph Mortimer
Margaretm[1] John de Braose
m[2] Walter de Clifford
Angharad
Dafydd (1208-1246)m Isabel de Braose
Susanna
Ellen (Helen)m[1] Malcolm, Earl of Fife
m[2] Donald

Married [2] Gwenllian of Brynffenigi

Children:

Helenm[1] John le Scot
m[2] Robert de Quincey
Gwenllian

Mistress: Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch

Child: Gruffydd (1196-1244)

Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:
http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html

Dave Utzinger posted on this based on the an article by William Addams
Reitwiesner in The Genealogist, vol. 1, no. 1 (Spring 1980), pp. 80-95. This
is his list:

Descendants of Llywelyn ap Iorworth

1 Llywelyn ap Iorworth b: Abt. 1173 in Dolyddelan, Wales d: 11 April
1240 in Aberconway Abbey, Carnarvonshire, Wales
. +Tangwystl verch Llwarch b: Abt. 1168 in of Rhos, Wales d: Bef. 1205
2 Gruffudd ap Llewellyn b: Bef. 1205 d: 01 March 1243/44 in London,
ENG
. +Senena ferch Caradog
*2nd Wife of Gruffudd ap Llewellyn:
. +Rhanullt
*2nd Wife of Llywelyn ap Iorworth:
. +Joan Plantagenet b: Abt. 1191 d: 02 February 1236/37 in Aber
Palace, Carnarvon, Wales
2 Elen verch Llywelyn b: in Gwynedd, Wales d: Bef. 24 October
1253
. +John of Scotland b: 1207 m: 1222 d: Abt. 06 June 1237
*2nd Husband of Elen verch Llywelyn:
. +Robert de Quincey b: Abt. 1176 m: Aft. 06 June 1237 d: Abt. 1257
2 Dafydd ap Llywelyn b: Abt. 1208 d: 12 February 1245/46 in Aber
. +Concubine
*2nd Wife of Dafydd ap Llywelyn:
. +Isabel de Braose b: Abt. 1215 m: Abt. 10 August 1230 d: Bef. 1248
*3rd Wife of Llywelyn ap Iorworth:
. +Unknown
2 Gwenllian of Wales d: 1281
. +William de Lacy
2 Angharad verch Llewelyn
. +Maelgwn Fychan d: 1257
2 Tegwared y Baiswen
. +Gwenllian ferch Ednyfed ap Cynwrig
2 Angharad verch Llywelyn
. +Philip ap Ivor
2 Daughter verch Llywelyn
. +William Caentwn
2 Gwladys Dhu of Wales b: Abt. 1194 in of Gwynedd, Wales d: 1251 in
Windsor, BRK, ENG
. +Reginald de Braose b: Abt. 1171 in Bramber, SSX, ENG m: 1215
d: Bet. 05 May 1227 - 09 June 1228 in Brecon, Breconshire, Wales
*2nd Husband of Gwladys Dhu of Wales:
. +Ralph de Mortimer b: 1190 in of Wigmore, HEF, ENG m: 1230 d: 06
August 1246 in Wigmore, HRT, ENG
2 Margred verch Llewellyn b: Abt. 1208 in Wales (North) d: 1268
. +John de Breuse b: Abt. 1198 m: Abt. 1220 d: Abt. 02 November
1232 in Bramber, SUS, ENG
*2nd Husband of Margred verch Llewellyn:
. +Walter III de Clifford b: Abt. 1186 in ENG m: Abt. 1232 in SSX, ENG

d: Abt. 23 December 1263 in Clifford
2 Helen verch Llewellyn b: Abt. 1234 in of Wales
. +Malcolm MacDuff b: Bef. 1228 d: 1266
*2nd Husband of Helen verch Llewellyn:
. +Donald de Mar d: Aft. 25 July 1297

LLYWELYN married Princess of England JOAN PLANTAGENET in 1205 in England. JOAN (daughter of King of England JOHN PLANTAGENET and Clementia) was born in 1188 in London, Middlesex, England; died on 03 Apr 1236 in Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales; was buried in Llan-Faes, Dindaethwy, Anglesey, Wales. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

[royalfam.ged]

The only place where her mother is named is in the Tewkesbury Annals, where
Joan's death is recorded. The Tewkesbury annalist says Joan was a daughter
of King John and of "Regina Clementia". Nobody knows who this "Queen
Clementia" was.

William Addams Reitwiesner
wrei@erols.com

LORWERTH married MARGRED VERCH MADOG about 1163. MARGRED (daughter of MADOG Ap MAREDYDD and SUSANNA VERCH GRUFFYDD) was born about 1129 in Montgomeryshire, Wales. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

[royalfam.ged]

Hubert Walter, Archbishop of Canterbury, died 13 July 1205, which provides a definite terminu s. The styling of Llywelyn Fawr as Prince of North Wales [princeps Norwalliae] could mean a s early as 1194, when he removed his uncle Dafydd from power, or as late as after 1200 when h e obtained control of the remainder of Gwynedd from his cousin Gruffydd. Perhaps if we can f ind more detail as to the career of Robert, bishop of Bangor and abbot of Bildewas, co. Salo p & c., this time frame could be better defined.

It is interesting to note that the issue has to do with the husband of 'M' [Margaret, mothe r of Llywelyn] and the issue of his relations with one 'Guladus' or Gwladys, a kinswoman of ' M'. While an Anglo-Welsh heritage is not ruled out for either woman, on the surface it woul d reinforce the indentification of Margaret with Margaret ferch Madog, daughter of Madog ap M aredudd of Powys (d. ca. 1160).

John
Therav3@aol.com

Notes:

[royalfam.ged]

Please find below a revised listing of the bastard children of King John. The list has been augmented by many new references, corrections, and additions since my last posting of this listing. The new listing includes Philip "Fiz Le Rey" [i.e., Philip the king's son]) found in a 1263 Sussex fine as a possible bastard child of King John.

Also, it appears there may be a link between Isabel, wife of Richard Fitz Ives, and another royal bastard, Eudes Fitz Roy. I've learned that in 1245, Isabel's son and heir, William Fitz Ives, sued Giles de
Chanceaux regarding property in Cornwall. This is surely the same man who was granted Eudes Fitz Roy's properties in Essex on his death without issue in 1242. The Fitz Ives and Chanceaux link deserves further study.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

- - - - - - - - - -

REVISED LISTING OF BASTARD CHILDREN OF KING JOHN OF ENGLAND:

Legitimated child of John of England, by a mistress, Clemence _____:

i. JOAN OF ENGLAND, married LLYWELYN AP IORWERTH, Prince of North Wales [see WAKE 4].

Illegitimate child of John of England, by a mistress, _____ de Warenne, daughter of Hamelin, 5th Earl of Surrey, by Isabel, daughter and heiress of William de Warenne, 3rd Earl of Surrey [see WARENNE 2]:

i. RICHARD FITZ ROY (or DE WARENNE), Knt., Baron of Chilham, Kent, married ROSE DE DOVER [see ATHOLL 4].

Illegitimate child of John of England, by a mistress, Hawise _____:

i. OLIVER FITZ ROY. He defended Wolvesey Castle for Peter des Roches, Bishop of Winchester, in 1216. In 1217 he was granted the lands formerly held by Peter Fitz Herbert to sustain him in the king's service. In 1218 he arrived with other English knights at Damietta in the company of Papal legate, Pelayo. He did not return. H.R. Luard, Chronica Majora 3 (1876): 40-41. C.P.R., 1216-1225 (1901), pp. 42-43,92. S. Painter, Reign of King John (1949), pp. 232-233. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102. J.M. Powell, Anatomy of a Crusade (1986), pg. 235. N. Vincent, Peter des Roches (1996), pp. 71,175.

Illegitimate children of John of England, by an unknown mistress (or mistresses):

i. JOHN FITZ ROY, evidently a clerk, supported by the custodians of the see of Lincoln in 1201. D.M. Stenton, Great Roll of the Pipe Michaelmas 1201 (Pipe Roll Soc., n.s., vol. 14) (1936), pp.
xix,192-193. S. Painter, Reign of King John (1949), pp. 232-233. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102.

ii. GEOFFREY FITZ ROY. In 1204 he received a loan by the pledge of William Longesp©be, Earl of Salisbury, and Peter de Stokes. In 1205 he led an expedition into Poitou and died the same year. Curia Regis Rolls 3 (1926): 321 (suit dated 1205: " ... quam diu predictus Radulfus [de Trublevill] fuerit in servicio nostro in Pictavia cum Gaufrido filio nostro"). D.M. Stenton, Great Roll of the Pipe
Michaelmas 1204 (Pipe Roll Soc., n.s., vol. 18) (1940), pp. xxxv-xxxvj,xlj,33,60,87,131. D.M. Stenton, Great Roll of the Pipe Michaelmas 1205 (Pipe Roll Soc., n.s., vol. 19) (1941), pp. xviij-xix,19,79-80. S. Painter, Reign of King John (1949), pp. 232-233. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102.

iii. HENRY FITZ ROY, Knt., of Waltham, Ashby, Brigsley, Gonerby (in Hatcliffe), Hawerby, and North Coates, co. Lincoln, and Chilham, Kent. He was sent as a student to the Prior of Kenilworth in 1207. In 1215 he was granted the lands of Robert Fitz Walter in Cornwall. In 1217 he and Ralph de Raleigh were granted the manor of Waltham, co. Lincoln formerly held by Alan Fitz Count to sustain them in royal service. In 1231 he was granted all of the land of Henry de Avaugor, a Norman, in Waltham, co. Lincoln. He married before 1236 EVE DE BLANCHMINSTER (or WHITCHURCH), widow of William de Champernoun (living 1230), of Umberleigh (in Atherington) and High Bickington, Devon, and daughter and heiress of Reynold de Blanchminster (or Whitchurch) (living 1248), of Shrivenham and Winterbourne (in Chieveley), co. Berks, and Bolney, co. Oxford, by his 1st wife, Alice, daughter and co-heiress of Nicholas de Bolney. They had no issue. SIR HENRY FITZ ROY died shortly before 8 Apr. 1245. His widow, Eve, married (3rd) before 30 June 1252 Giles de Clifford (living 1276). C.Ch.R. 1 (1895): 137 (styled "Henry the king's brother"). J.L. Vivian, Visitations of the County of Devon (1895), pp. 160. C.P.R., 1216-1225 (1901), pp. 128, 574 ("Henricus filius regis"). C.C.R., 1227-1231 (1902), pg. 51. C.P.R., 1225-1232 (1903), pp. 311 ("Henricus frater regis"), 357,441. C.C.R., 1234-1237 (1908), pg. 219 ("Henrico fratri regis"). Book of Fees 1 (1920): 362 ("Henricus frater regis"), 617 ("Henricus filius regis"); 2 (1923): 660,675,1021 (instances of "Henricus filius Regis"). C.P.R., 1232-1247 (1906), pp. 20,296,450. C.C.R., 1237-1242 (1911), pg. 511 ("Henricum filium regis"). VCH Berkshire 3 (19??): 424; 4 (1924): 63,513,533. C.C.R., 1251-1253 (1927), pg. 116. S. Painter, Reign of King John (1949), pp. 232-233. C.P. 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 645 (sub Wilington). Curia Regis Rolls 13 (1959): 138,215,283 ("Henricus filius regis John"), 290,364-365,371,514,542; 15 (1972): 83,449 (styled "Henricum filium le Rey"). R.A. Brown, Memoranda Roll for the Tenth Year of the Reign of King John (1207-8) (Pipe Roll Soc., n.s., vol. 31) (1957), pg. 137 (Henry called "our son" [filio nostro] by King John). NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102. B.R. Kemp, Reading Abbey Cartularies 1 (Camden, 4th ser., vol. 31) (1986): 375. S.D. Church, Household Knights of King John (1999), pg. 127.

iv. OSBERT GIFFORD, Knt. In 1215 he received the lands of Thomas de Ardern in Oxfordshire. In 1216 he likewise received Ardern's lands in Bundes, Norfolk, and elsewhere in Suffolk, Essex, and Sussex, and the lands of Aumary Despenser, Roger Fitz Nicholas, and Ralph Bluet in Oxfordshire. SIR OSBERT GIFFORD died in 1248. Ancestor 3 (1902): 227 (his arms: Ermine two bars gules, on a chief gules a leopard or). Genealogist n.s. 28 (1922): 128-129. S. Painter, Reign of King John (1949), pp. 232-233. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102. T.D. Tremlett, Rolls of Arms Henry III (Harleian Soc. Pub., vols. 113-114) (1967), pg. 47.

v. EUDES (or IVES) FITZ ROY, of Canewdon, Essex. In 1233 he was granted lands in Aldbury, co. Hertford. He had an exchequer fee of Ð20 granted to him in 1237. In the period, c. 1227/41, he witnessed a charter for his brother, Richard, Earl of Cornwall, to Launceston Priory in Cornwall. In 1240 he joined Earl Richard on a crusade to the Holy Land. EUDES FITZ ROY died there testate shortly before 21 Jan. 1241/2. His lands in Essex were granted to Giles de Chanceaux in 1242. No known descendants. G. Oliver, Monasticon Diocesis Exonienses (1846), pg. 23. C.C.R., 1231-1234 (1905), pg. 210 ("Eudoni filio regis"). C.P.R., 1232-1247 (1906), pp. 179 ("Eudo the king's brother"), 270 ("Eudo son of R. the king's brother"), 314 ("Eudo the king's brother"). C.C.R., 1237-1242 (1911), pp. 73 ("Eudoni fratri regis"), 386-387 ("Eudonis fratris regis"), 387 ("Ivonis fratris domini regis"), 532 ("Eudonis fratris nostri"). Cal. Liberate Rolls 1 (1916), pg. 263. N. Denholm-Young, Richard of Cornwall (1947), pp. 41,112. P.L. Hull, Cartulary of Launceston Priory (Devon & Cornwall Rec. Soc., n.s., vol. 30) (1987) 12 ("Yvo brother of the earl" [Richard, Earl of Cornwall]).

vi. BARTHOLOMEW FITZ ROY, clerk, papal chaplain, member of the order of Friars Preachers, living Aug. 1254. Papal Registers: Letters 1 (1893): 281,286,305.

vii. MAUD FITZ ROY, nun, elected Abbess of Barking 5 Aug. 1247; died shortly before 6 Feb. 1252. Sir William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 1 (1817): 437,441 ("Dame Maud la file le Roy John"). VCH Essex 2 (1907): 120.

Alleged illegitimate child of John of England, by an unknown mistress,
_____:

i. ISABEL FITZ ROY, married RICHARD FITZ IVES, Knt., lord of Degembris (in Newlyn East), Cornwall. They had two sons, William Fitz Richard, Knt. (of Degembris and Penhallow [both in Newlyn East], Lanisley (in Gulival), and Rosneython and Trenoweth-Chammon [both in St. Keverne]) and Richard Fitz Richard (clerk), and one daughter, Isabel (wife of Belyn Hellegan, Knt.). He gave tithes in Gruguth (in St. Keverne), Cornwall. SIR RICHARD FITZ IVES allegedly died in 1207. Modern descendants (not traced). Herald and Genealogist 7 (1873): 229-231 (Isabel styled "filie Regis Joh'is"). Sir John Maclean, Parochial and Family Hist. of the Deanery of Trigg Minor 1 (1876): 317. J.L. Vivian, Visitations of Cornwall (1887), pg. 30. G.D. Stawell, A Quantock Family: The Stawells of Cothelstone and their Descendants (1910), pp. 44-45. J.H. Rowe, Cornwall Feet of Fines 1 (1914): 17,49,54-55,58-59,91-92,171,438-440. C.R.R. 11 (1955), pg. 473; 12 (1957): 189. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102. C.R.R. 18 (1999): 362-363. Harleian MS. 4031, ff. 76b,81.

Possible illegitimate child of John of England, by an unknown mistress, _____:

i. PHILIP FITZ ROY (possible child). In 1263 he and his wife, Lavina, conveyed lands at Bignor, Pebmarsh, and Petworth, Surrey to Henry Fitz [le] Roy, perhaps their son. L.F. Salzman, Abstract of Feet of Fines Relating to the County of Sussex (Sussex Rec. Soc., vol. 7) (1908), pg. 45 ("Ph[illip]um Fiz Le Rey" [i.e., Philip the king's son]) (cf. W. Hudson, Three Earliest Subsidies for the County of Sussex in the Years 1296,1327,1332 (Sussex Rec. Soc., vol. 19) (1910), pp. 73,95 (references to "Henr[icus] fyz le Rey" on 1296 Sussex subsidy).

The following is a list of eleven bastard children of King John of England which I've assembled from a variety of sources. If anyone has any additions or corrections to this material, please let me know.
The first two children listed, Richard Fitz Roy (or de Warenne), Baron of Chilham, Kent, and Joan, wife of Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales, have many modern descendants.

Although sometimes questioned, I accept Isabel, wife of Richard Fitz Ives, Knt., as a bastard daughter of King John. Isabel appears to have modern descendants. Besides Isabel, I've also included a new
bastard child for King John not commonly found on such lists, namely Maud Fitz Roy, Abbess of Barking, whose identity is proven by the sources cited below.

Sidney Painter, King John's historian, says of him: ".... cruel, lecherous, and deceitful." Surely the number of illegitimate children listed below for King John proves the lecherous part.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com

- - - - - - - - - - - -
BASTARD CHILDREN OF KING JOHN OF ENGLAND

Illegitimate child of John of England, by a mistress, _____ de Warenne:

i. RICHARD FITZ ROY (or DE WARENNE), Knt., Baron of Chilham, Kent, married ROSE DE DOVER [see ATHOLL 4].

Illegitimate child of John of England, by a mistress, Clemence _____:

i. JOAN OF ENGLAND, married LLYWELYN AP IORWERTH, Prince of North Wales [see WAKE 4].

Illegitimate child of John of England, by a mistress, Hawise _____:

i. OLIVER FITZ ROY. He defended Wolvesey Castle for Peter des Roches, Bishop of Winchester, in 1216. In 1217 he was granted the lands formerly held by Peter Fitz Herbert to sustain him in the king';s service. In 1218 he arrived with other English knights at Damietta in the company of Papal legate, Pelayo. He did not return. H.R. Luard, Chronica Majora 3 (1876): 40-41. C.P.R., 1216-1225 (1901), pp. 42-43,92. S. Painter, Reign of King John (1949), pp. 232-233. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102. J.M. Powell, Anatomy of a Crusade (1986), pg. 235. N. Vincent, Peter des Roches (1996), pp. 71,175.

Illegitimate children of John of England, by an unknown mistress (or mistresses):

i. ISABEL FITZ ROY, married RICHARD FITZ IVES, Knt., lord of Degembris (in Newlyn East), Cornwall. They had two sons, William Fitz Richard, Knt. (of Degembris and Penhallow [both in Newlyn East], Lanisley, and Rosneython [in St. Keverne]) and Richard Fitz Richard (clerk), and one daughter, Isabel (wife of Belyn Hellegan, Knt.). He gave tithes in Gruguth (in St. Keverne), Cornwall. SIR RICHARD FITZ IVES died in 1207. Modern descendants (not traced in this book). Herald and Genealogist 7 (1873): 229-231. Sir John Maclean, Parochial and Family Hist. of the Deanery of Trigg Minor 1 (1876): 317. J.L. Vivian, Visitations of Cornwall (1887), pg. 30. J.H. Rowe, Cornwall Feet of Fines 1 (1914): 17,49,54-55,58-59,91-92,171,438-440. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102. Harleian MS. 4031, ff. 76b,81 (not seen).

ii. JOHN FITZ ROY, evidently a clerk, supported by the custodians of the see of Lincoln in 1201. D.M. Stenton, Great Roll of the Pipe Michaelmas 1201 (Pipe Roll Soc., n.s., vol. 14) (1936), pp. xix,192-193. S. Painter, Reign of King John (1949), pp. 232-233. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102.

iii. GEOFFREY FITZ ROY. In 1204 he received a loan by the pledge of William Longesp©be, Earl of Salisbury, and Peter de Stokes. In 1205 he led an expedition into Poitou and died the same year. Curia Regis Rolls 3 (1926): 321 (suit dated 1205: "... quam diu predictus Radulfus [de Trublevill] fuerit in servicio nostro in Pictavia cum Gaufrido filio nostro"). D.M. Stenton, Great Roll of the Pipe Michaelmas 1204 (Pipe Roll Soc., n.s., vol. 18) (1940), pp. xxxv-xxxvj,xlj,33,60,87,131. D.M. Stenton Great Roll of the Pipe Michaelmas 1205 (Pipe Roll Soc., n.s., vol. 19) (1941), pp. xviij-xix,19,79-80. S. Painter, Reign of King John (1949), pp. 232-233. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102.

iv. HENRY FITZ ROY, Knt., of Waltham, Ashby, Brigsley, Gonerby (in Hatcliffe), Hawerby, and North Coates, co. Lincoln, and Chilham, Kent. He was sent as a student to the Prior of Kenilworth in 1207. In 1215 he was granted the lands of Robert Fitz Walter in Cornwall. In 1217 he and Ralph de Raleigh were granted the manor of Waltham, co. Lincoln to sustain them in royal service. In 1231 he was granted all of the land of Henry de la Vaugoz, a Norman, in the soke of Waltham, co. Lincoln. He married before 1236 EVE DE WHITCHURCH, widow of William de Champernoun (living 1230), of Umberleigh (in Atherington) and High Bickington, Devon, and daughter and heiress of Reynold de Whitchurch, of Shrivenham and Winterbourne (in Chieveley), co. Berks, by his 1st wife, Alice, daughter and co-heiress of Nicholas de Bolney. They had no issue. SIR HENRY FITZ ROY died shortly before 8 Apr. 1245. His widow, Eve, married (3rd) before 30 June 1252 Giles de Clifford (living 1276). C.Ch.R. 1 (1895): 137. J.L. Vivian, Visitations of the County of Devon (1895), pp. 160. Book of Fees 1: 362,617; 2 (1923): 660,675,1021. C.P.R., 1232-1247 (1906), pp. 20,296,450. C.C.R., 1237-1242 (1911), pg. 511. VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 63,533. C.C.R., 1251-1253 (1927), pg. 116. S. Painter, Reign of King John (1949), pp. 232-233. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102. C.P. 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 645 (sub Wilington). Curia Regis Rolls 13 (1959): 514; 15 (1972): 83,449. S.D. Church, Household Knights of King John (1999), pg. 127.

v. OSBERT GIFFORD. In 1215 he received the lands of Thomas de Ardern in Oxfordshire. In 1216 he likewise received Ardern's lands in Norfolk, Suffolk, and Sussex. In 1216 he and his wife received safe conduct to confer with King John. His subsequent history is unknown. Ancestor 3 (1902): 227 (his arms: Ermine, 2 bars gules, a chief gules with a leopard or in chief). Genealogist n.s. 28 (1922): 128-129. S. Painter, Reign of King John (1949), pp. 232-233. NEHGR 119 (1965): 94-102.

vi. EUDES FITZ ROY, of Canewdon, Essex. In 1233 he was granted lands in Aldbury, co. Hertford. He had an exchequer fee iof Ð20 granted to him in 1237. In 1240 he joined his half-brother, Richard, Earl of Cornwall on a crusade to the Holy Land. EUDES FITZ ROY died there testate shortly before 21 Jan. 1241/2. His lands in Essex were granted to Giles de Chanceaus in 1242. No known descendants. G. Oliver, Monasticon Diocesis Exonienses (1846), pg. 23. C.C.R., 1231-1234 (1905), pg. 210. C.P.R., 1232-1247 (1906), pp. 179,270,314. C.C.R., 1237-1242 (1911), pp. 387,532. Cal. Liberate Rolls 1 (1916), pg. 263. N. Denholm-Young, Richard of Cornwall (1947), pp. 41,112.

vii. BARTHOLOMEW FITZ ROY, clerk, papal chaplain, member of the order of Friars Preachers, living Aug. 1254. Papal Registers: Letters 1 (1893): 281,286,305.

viii. MAUD FITZ ROY, nun, elected Abbess of Barking 5 Aug. 1247; died shortly before 6 Feb. 1252. Sir William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum 1 (1817): 437,441. VCH Essex 2 (1907): 120.

Signed Magna Carta in 1215

The statement in the legitimization of Joan, daughter of king John and wife of prince Llywelyn, that each of her parents were unmarried at the time of her birth, does not imply she was born prior to John's first marriage, to Isabelle de Clare in 1189. This marriage had been annulled by the time of Joan's legitimization, and would have been considered by the clerics not to have occurred.

It might be that the legitimization does imply that, by the time of John's second marriage, to Isabelle of Angouleme, that Joan's mother was either dead or had become a nun, otherwise the legitimacy of king Henry III might have been called into question.

It might also be that the reference in Joan's obituary to her mother as "queen Clementia" implies that Clemence, mother of Joan, did not die or become a nun until after John's accession.

I suspect that in the minds of the monks and clerics who recorded things, these annulments and legitimizations created a virtual world in which annulled real world marriages did not exist, and appropriate legitimizing marriages did exist, with all appropriate side effect implications, including Clemence having been queen..

- Paul K. Davis - paulkdavis@earthlink.net

King John had illegitimate children over the entire course of his adult life. He was a very busy man in the bedroom. One of his older bastard sons, Geoffrey, received a loan by the pledge of William
Longesp©be, Earl of Salisbury, and Peter de Stokes in 1204. In 1205 he led an expedition into Poitou and died the same year. King John likewise had another illegitimate daughter, Joan, who married before 23 Mar. 1204/5 Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales. Consequently, it is possible that King John was the father of Isabel, wife of Richard Fitz Ives, who allegedly died in 1207. By the way, I
have reason to suppose that Isabel survived Richard Fitz Ives for many years and remarried.

Second, Isabel de Beaupre is not the same person as King John's bastard daughter, Isabel, wife of Richard Fitz Ives. As best I can tell, Isabel de Beaupre is a later day descendant and the senior
heiress of the Fitz Ives family. I didn't mean to imply that the two Isabel's were the same person.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

JOHN + Clementia. Clementia was born on Yes, date unknown; and died. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

[royalfam.ged]

Regarding the identity of Clemence, mother of Joan of England, wife of
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales, the following information
might be helpful.

The actual entry in the Tewksbury annals which pertains to Joan's
mother, "Queen" Clemence, reads as follows:

Year: A.D. 1236

Obiit domina Johanna domina Walliae, uxor Lewelini filia regis
Johannis et regina Clemencie, iii. kal. Aprilis."

[Died lady Joan lady of Wales, wife of Llywelyn, daughter of King John
and Queen Clemence, 3 Kal. April."

Reference: Henry Richard Luard, Annales Monastici, 1 (1864): 101.

In this case, the monk was evidently indulging in medieval legalism.
Before her death, Joan had been legitimized by the Pope. On the
basis of that legitimization, the Tewksbury monk evidently chose to
elevate Joan's mother to the status of Queen, as if Joan's mother had
been King John's wife. In point of fact, King John and Joan's mother,
Clemence, were never married. By referring to Joan's mother as
"Queen" Clemence, the monk who recorded Joan's death was showing his
extreme respect for Joan, not attempting to alter the facts.

The item from the Patent Rolls cited by Robert Battle below involving
Joan's daughter, Susanna, was located by me some years ago.
Basically, the document states that King Henry III is entrusting the
care of his niece, Susanna (daughter of Llywelyn and Joan), to the
care of Nicholas de Verdun and Clemence, his wife.

On the surface, there would be nothing to suggest any connection
between Susanna of Wales and Clemence, wife of Nicholas de Verdun.
However, Susanna was almost certainly being held in England as a
hostage as a guarantee for good behavior on the part of her father,
Llywelyn. Her brother, David, for instance, was being held hostage in
England at the time of the Magna Carta.

My experience with foreign hostages has been that they were often
placed with their English relatives, if any were available. To verify
that, one has only to consult the long list of Scottish hostages in
this period, who I discovered were repeatedly placed with their
English kinsmen. Being a hostage in this period basically meant the
person was under house arrest. Under such circumstances, it is easy
to understand why such persons were placed with their own relations.

The fact that Clemence, wife of Nicholas de Verdun, is mentioned at
all catches the eye. Under normal circumstances, the wife would not
be named. The fact that she was so named suggests she had some
interest in Susanna. Given the fact we know that Susanna's
grandmother was named Clemence, it becomes readily apparent that
Clemence, wife of Nicholas de Verdun, was Susanna's own grandmother.
That this is true is underscored by the fact that when the king later
granted Susanna's care to another individual, no mention was made of
the other man's wife. Even more important, the name Clemence is
extremely rare among English noble women of this period. The fact
that anyone named Clemence would be associated with Susanna is
important.

As for the identity of Clemence de Verdun, Paget shows that she was
the daughter of Roger de Dauntsey, of Wiltshire. It is interesting
that Clemence would hail from Wiltshire. Over the years, I've
noticed that King John had a strong attachment to Wiltshire, it being
the home of his most trusted allies, the Longespee, Marshal, and
Basset families and Geoffrey Fitz Peter, Earl of Essex. Surely, given
that his strongest supporters were all Wiltshire people suggests that
King John spent much time there.

Back in 1992, I shared my findings on Clemence de Dauntsey with Gary
Boyd Roberts, who in turn placed her name as Joan's mother in his
book, Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants, published in 1993. On page
305, he notes that I was then planning an article on Princess Joan and
her mother, Clemence. Due to circumstances beyond my control, the
article was never published as scheduled. However, I do plan to
include a discussion of Clemence de Dauntsey in my forthcoming book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, 3rd edition. For those interested in obtaining
a copy of the book, please contact me privately at my e-mail address
below.

In this case, I think the evidence is suggestive but not conclusive
that Clemence de Dauntsey was Princess Joan's mother. Perhaps with a
little prodding of the records, the desired conclusive evidence of Joan's parentage will ye t be
located.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com

OWAIN + Gwladus Verch Llywarch. Gwladus (daughter of Llywarch Ap Trahaearn and Dyddgu Verch Iorwerth) was born about 1098 in Arwystli, Montgomeryshire, Wales. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

MADOG + SUSANNA VERCH GRUFFYDD. SUSANNA (daughter of GRUFFYDD Ap CYANAN and ANGHARAD VERCH OWAIN) was born about 1095 in Caernarvonshire, Walesey, Wales. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

[royalfam.ged]

Do we have a date in 1203 as to when Joan was sent to England from Normandy? This would be interesting and possibly enlightening - John himself was in Normandy during most of that year, in Le Mans in January but then
moving into Normandy near Argentan and not leaving Normandy (although this time, for good) on 5 December. As recorded by Giraldus Cambrensis and the author of the Histoire de Guillaume le Marechal, John was clearly in the process of losing hold of Normandy during that year, so it would seem Joan's relocation to England was part of the overall process of collapse.

As to the issue of Henry I's issue, it may be that he thought the alliances of his illegitimate brood would not complicate the matter of succession - however, immediate prior history does not mesh well with this presumption. The 70-year period preceding Henry I's death involved several problematic dynastic problems:

A. The forceful taking of the English throne by a bastard (his own father);

B. The lengthy contest for the throne between two brothers (his own, being Robert 'Curthose ' and William 'Rufus')

C. His own acquisition of the English throne on the death of William 'Rufus', in place of his absent elder brother Robert, in 1100 [the resolution of their claims not being decided except on the field of battle in 1106, at Tinchebrai].

Henry I's evident desire was for the succession of his son (or at least one of his sons), and failing that, the succession of his daughter Matilda. He knew full well, little was guaranteed as to the English succession, else he would not have required baronial agreement to Matilda's succession before his death. Do we know, in the event of Matilda's death, that he would not prefer the accession of his son Robert (the bastard known
as Robert de Caen, the Earl of Gloucester) over any available nephew ?

Best regards,
John P. Ravilious
Therav3@aol.com

royal92.ged, Date of Import: Feb 10, 2006, lists May 18, 1152 Bordeaux, France as the marriage information for Elbeonore and Henry.

HENRY married Queen of England, Princess of Aquitaine ELBEANOR ALIENOR on 11 May 1152 in Bordeaux, Gironde, Aquitaine, France. ELBEANOR (daughter of Duke WILLIAM GUILLAME, X and Duchess De Chatellerault ELBEANOR) was born in 1122 in Chcateau De Belin, Bordeaux, Aquitaine, France; died on 31 Mar 1204 in Castle Mirabell, Poitiers, Poitou, Aquitaine, France; was buried in Apr 1204 in Abbaye De Fontevrault, Fontevrault, Maine-et-Loire, Pays de la Loire, France. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

On page 151 of Eleanor of Aquitaine by Alison Weir she says "On 10 January 1156, having spen t more than a year in England, Henry crossed from Dover to Wissant and returned to Normandy to attend to the affairs of his continental fiefs, leaving Richard de Lucy as regent and placi ng Eleanor and their children under the guardianship of Archbishop Theobald and John of Salis bury; the Pipe Rolls show that the Queen was paid allowances for the two boys, and also recor d that she was supporting in her household her sister Petronilla and their two bastard brothe rs, William and Joscelin. During the period 1154-8 there are thirty-six entries relating to E xchequer payments to William, as well as regular payments of generous sums for wine for Petro nilla."

She says that Petronilla was married to Raoul, count of Vermandois and that he died in 1151 . She further says that Petronilla's date of death is not recorded.

Fontevraud is the place of death and burial listed in the royal92.ged with the date of death as April 01, 1204.

Sources:
royal92.ged, Date of Import: Feb 10, 2006.
royalfam.ged, Date of Import: Feb 10, 2006.
Eleanor of Aquitaine by Alison Weir: Page 151.